First the Heart then the Work
Brian is a stand up dude, and with 14 years of professional experience he knows what he’s talking about. And to top it off he is becoming a priest. I ask him about life in the industry, how he found his calling, and how to make good work. So grab a cup of coffee, turn off your phone for 10 minutes, and read along.
Ok where do we start...How did you begin working as a music producer?
So I went to a school called Full Sail University in Orlando, graduated and moved and started working as a runner at a recording studio in L.A.. That means I picked up food, got coffee, and cleaned the floors of a really famous recording studio called Ocean Way where Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, ...up through the ages, it’s still going strong. I worked there for a couple of months, and also at their sister studio called Record One in Van Nuys where I continued to learn. I was 19 years old and I picked up food for all sorts of artists. I met Eric Clapton and BB King on an album there, and I learned a lot by watching the way these artists would make albums-- to just be a fly on the wall. I ended up developing some contacts in other studios and moved over to former A&M Studios which had just been bought by the Jim Henson company in 2000, and started working for them. I started as a runner, and worked my way up after about two years to become a 2nd Engineer. I started working in the rooms with a lot of different artists.
Anyone we’ve heard of?
I worked with Bon Jovi, Bruce Springsteen, the Eagles, Prince, a lot of rock… I worked on a 5.1 live album for Kiss. And then I assisted on an album with a rock band called Janes Addiction with the producer Bob Ezrin who is famous from producing Pink Floyd’s “The Wall” and he asked if I would join him and engineer at a studio called Carriage House in Connecticut. So I started working for him. We worked on some different albums and then on a movie for Jay Z and Beyonce. Little by little I started producing more. One band called State Radio was one of the first albums that I produced that did well where people heard it and started calling me for more work. So I did some traveling to Chicago and Mississippi and Sacramento. And then I moved from Connecticut back to L.A. to work with Diana Ross, and we ended up working together for 8 years. I’ve done music for film and T.V... some United Airlines commercials.. I’ve worked with Andrea Bocelli, Maroon 5, Bruno Mars. Different things with the LA Philharmonic. it was a wide variety of work. It took a lot of hard work… and especially with bands that nobody has ever heard of. I poured my heart into it.
Coming into the industry, what did you expect? And how did that change?
I thought there would be some sort of answer, some sort of freedom that would come through. I felt like whenever I played or listened to music when I was younger there was some sort of experience that I would have that would draw me out of myself and allow me to enter into something deeper, something more meaningful than what I was seeing in the world around me. So I was attracted to this. I expected a spark to come through, a glimmer of the divine life that I didn’t know how to articulate at the time. I expected it to blossom into an even greater experience. I thought that music could provide all the answers I was looking for. I felt that through music I could help change the world, and I committed myself fully, my whole life, to the music business. I devoted my life, often 140 hours a week, and I wouldn’t get paid for half of those. I literally lived at the studio. And even then it was totally competitive. All of the people, guitar players playing all day and night... getting so good, basically sleeping with their guitars, and even then having a hard time finding gigs. This is the kind of expertise that is going on in the secular world. And I had to match that so my commitment needed to be 100%.
But Why?
Because I wanted it to be good. I put so much value into [pause] I put my own value into the quality of the product that I produced. And because I took it so personally, I had to make sure that it was good. I was so invested in it, it had to be good. The practical is, for it to hold up to those standards that the people I looked up to were doing, it needed to match up and it took that much time to go through all of that data that we’d record and make it the best. I felt like I needed to do the music justice. The song was asking for it [long pause] I wanted to honor the music, that’s the reason. The singer would sing 10, 20, 50 takes sometimes and I wanted to go through every syllable that was sung to make sure that I chose the best moments for the comp. Knowing that it would honor that artist and the music if I put that much work it. There was an integrity I felt I needed to uphold, by not making quick decisions, hours… days of going through stuff.
Insane. Did you ever get blasted by people for not doing well? What are the people like in the industry?
Dude the people that are working in the secular music industry are so gifted. I think there are many that are searching for something deeper but they don’t know about the origin of what they’re really attracted to. They are so gifted. So for them, to enter into making music that transcends...for us to meet them, that would give them an outlet to enter into the faith. We need their gifts. There are some unbelievably gifted people, you know? And they’re just not inspired by what they are hearing in the Catholic scene. We have to provide a platform, as Catholics, that can meet their capacities, that can hold a place for them to be able to express themselves in their full giftedness. Just like in the secular scene, there is a platform that you can see their gifts. To be able to give those gifts to God-- dang, so cool.
Ok where do we start...How did you begin working as a music producer?
So I went to a school called Full Sail University in Orlando, graduated and moved and started working as a runner at a recording studio in L.A.. That means I picked up food, got coffee, and cleaned the floors of a really famous recording studio called Ocean Way where Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, ...up through the ages, it’s still going strong. I worked there for a couple of months, and also at their sister studio called Record One in Van Nuys where I continued to learn. I was 19 years old and I picked up food for all sorts of artists. I met Eric Clapton and BB King on an album there, and I learned a lot by watching the way these artists would make albums-- to just be a fly on the wall. I ended up developing some contacts in other studios and moved over to former A&M Studios which had just been bought by the Jim Henson company in 2000, and started working for them. I started as a runner, and worked my way up after about two years to become a 2nd Engineer. I started working in the rooms with a lot of different artists.
Anyone we’ve heard of?
I worked with Bon Jovi, Bruce Springsteen, the Eagles, Prince, a lot of rock… I worked on a 5.1 live album for Kiss. And then I assisted on an album with a rock band called Janes Addiction with the producer Bob Ezrin who is famous from producing Pink Floyd’s “The Wall” and he asked if I would join him and engineer at a studio called Carriage House in Connecticut. So I started working for him. We worked on some different albums and then on a movie for Jay Z and Beyonce. Little by little I started producing more. One band called State Radio was one of the first albums that I produced that did well where people heard it and started calling me for more work. So I did some traveling to Chicago and Mississippi and Sacramento. And then I moved from Connecticut back to L.A. to work with Diana Ross, and we ended up working together for 8 years. I’ve done music for film and T.V... some United Airlines commercials.. I’ve worked with Andrea Bocelli, Maroon 5, Bruno Mars. Different things with the LA Philharmonic. it was a wide variety of work. It took a lot of hard work… and especially with bands that nobody has ever heard of. I poured my heart into it.
Coming into the industry, what did you expect? And how did that change?
I thought there would be some sort of answer, some sort of freedom that would come through. I felt like whenever I played or listened to music when I was younger there was some sort of experience that I would have that would draw me out of myself and allow me to enter into something deeper, something more meaningful than what I was seeing in the world around me. So I was attracted to this. I expected a spark to come through, a glimmer of the divine life that I didn’t know how to articulate at the time. I expected it to blossom into an even greater experience. I thought that music could provide all the answers I was looking for. I felt that through music I could help change the world, and I committed myself fully, my whole life, to the music business. I devoted my life, often 140 hours a week, and I wouldn’t get paid for half of those. I literally lived at the studio. And even then it was totally competitive. All of the people, guitar players playing all day and night... getting so good, basically sleeping with their guitars, and even then having a hard time finding gigs. This is the kind of expertise that is going on in the secular world. And I had to match that so my commitment needed to be 100%.
But Why?
Because I wanted it to be good. I put so much value into [pause] I put my own value into the quality of the product that I produced. And because I took it so personally, I had to make sure that it was good. I was so invested in it, it had to be good. The practical is, for it to hold up to those standards that the people I looked up to were doing, it needed to match up and it took that much time to go through all of that data that we’d record and make it the best. I felt like I needed to do the music justice. The song was asking for it [long pause] I wanted to honor the music, that’s the reason. The singer would sing 10, 20, 50 takes sometimes and I wanted to go through every syllable that was sung to make sure that I chose the best moments for the comp. Knowing that it would honor that artist and the music if I put that much work it. There was an integrity I felt I needed to uphold, by not making quick decisions, hours… days of going through stuff.
Insane. Did you ever get blasted by people for not doing well? What are the people like in the industry?
Dude the people that are working in the secular music industry are so gifted. I think there are many that are searching for something deeper but they don’t know about the origin of what they’re really attracted to. They are so gifted. So for them, to enter into making music that transcends...for us to meet them, that would give them an outlet to enter into the faith. We need their gifts. There are some unbelievably gifted people, you know? And they’re just not inspired by what they are hearing in the Catholic scene. We have to provide a platform, as Catholics, that can meet their capacities, that can hold a place for them to be able to express themselves in their full giftedness. Just like in the secular scene, there is a platform that you can see their gifts. To be able to give those gifts to God-- dang, so cool.
Ok, well then coming in non-religious, basically to reading manuals day and night...working, totally devoting yourself to the craft… from that perspective, how did this shift come about with God?
I spent so much effort in holding all this up that when I met a group of people who were praying together in a prayer group, that emphasized the aspect of the self-emptying, the whole not holding it up, not having to always be full but to be empty, and not having to produce.. and to experience support from people that said I didn’t always have to work work work to fill that space, to keep producing and producing. When I started to pray in a quiet way I started to know for sure that I didn't need to keep keep everything up by my own power. And as I did that, I noticed that what the glimmer of the divine that I was experiencing in music was actually also present when I was speaking with my friend at a coffee shop, or when a lady smiled at me in the grocery store. I sort of woke up. And it wasn’t so much that music came down off the pillar I had set it on, it was just that all of reality and the experiences around me could rise up to that same place where music was. It was more that all of life, all of my experiences, became a platform for the kind of encounter that I thought only music could provide. All of life became a song, like one song. It all became.
Did you feel conflicted at that point, because you had found the real source?
No.. I didn’t. I felt like [pause] I remember sitting in the prayer group after I passed up this gig for the same night with Alice Cooper. I sat there thinking that I had given up this gig to be there, to pray. I wasn’t basing my values anymore on who I worked with, my priorities were focused on God. It was slow and gradual, and I realized that when I went into the studio my intentions were purified and I was able to help draw even more of that glimmer out of the artists. I could recognize it more in other people because I was spending time with the source of it, I could recognize it now. That was through prayer. I had to turn down some jobs, and I had to be willing to totally fail.
Okay, so you think that you can be a good Catholic and do media. But you quit, and you’re going to become a priest. That doesn’t make any sense! A different call?
For me, after 14 years… I switched because for me it was the next right thing to do. It wasn’t that difficult of a decision because I continued to try to live the best, and it lead me to the decision to move toward the priesthood. It wasn’t a big risk, it was a slow movement. It was the next right thing to do.
And the wrong thing would be to do what?
What I think it comes down to is the spiritual life. I was living in community with men and women and we would pray, and share our faith, and do ministry, and that, I felt that, truly, God was calling me to be a priest for his people. For me, there is no other way I can live out that desire in my heart. To broadcast my love, God’s love. And the more I got to know God the more I got to know myself. And the more that went the more I knew I was supposed to act… to share in God’s life in this particular way as a priest. But this is me.
Well then can someone have a vocation of being an artist? Is that possible?
Well yeah, I would say that the form that your life takes as a result of keeping on admitting your inabilities and giving it up to let God be first. It could take any form. There is no reason it can’t be an artist. If you’re made to write songs, to make art... if that’s how God comes alive in you, and you’re pinned to that cross, you’re not going to escape from that. Why would you want to, that’s the joy. So to respond confidently to that call to create art would be living a life of integrity. You would be honest about what’s going on inside you.
So it’s about doing what you’re supposed to do. I think that’s discernment and like you said knowing yourself and God. I don’t think it’s possible to just go to one of the other and say “This is what I am made to do.” Even if you’re like Mozart, you know?
This is a huge thing in the music industry, and I’m sure in every capacity, especially in media. That so many times the bass player wants to be the singer. And the singer, you know, should actually be the bass player. And instead of people really honoring their gift-set, they want to be something that they’re not [pause] when the person that should be the bass player is the bass player and the person that should be the vocalist is the vocalist, and when they remain in position, everyone plays their proper role in the body of Christ. They can take of. and it’s easy… well hard work, but easy still. Not everyone is called to be the star, the frontman. It takes courage to either step down or to step up from behind the curtain and say “Hey, I’m really a singer.” We can accept this, we can start relying on God and each other. And we can work together. To really do well... to be one.
I spent so much effort in holding all this up that when I met a group of people who were praying together in a prayer group, that emphasized the aspect of the self-emptying, the whole not holding it up, not having to always be full but to be empty, and not having to produce.. and to experience support from people that said I didn’t always have to work work work to fill that space, to keep producing and producing. When I started to pray in a quiet way I started to know for sure that I didn't need to keep keep everything up by my own power. And as I did that, I noticed that what the glimmer of the divine that I was experiencing in music was actually also present when I was speaking with my friend at a coffee shop, or when a lady smiled at me in the grocery store. I sort of woke up. And it wasn’t so much that music came down off the pillar I had set it on, it was just that all of reality and the experiences around me could rise up to that same place where music was. It was more that all of life, all of my experiences, became a platform for the kind of encounter that I thought only music could provide. All of life became a song, like one song. It all became.
Did you feel conflicted at that point, because you had found the real source?
No.. I didn’t. I felt like [pause] I remember sitting in the prayer group after I passed up this gig for the same night with Alice Cooper. I sat there thinking that I had given up this gig to be there, to pray. I wasn’t basing my values anymore on who I worked with, my priorities were focused on God. It was slow and gradual, and I realized that when I went into the studio my intentions were purified and I was able to help draw even more of that glimmer out of the artists. I could recognize it more in other people because I was spending time with the source of it, I could recognize it now. That was through prayer. I had to turn down some jobs, and I had to be willing to totally fail.
Okay, so you think that you can be a good Catholic and do media. But you quit, and you’re going to become a priest. That doesn’t make any sense! A different call?
For me, after 14 years… I switched because for me it was the next right thing to do. It wasn’t that difficult of a decision because I continued to try to live the best, and it lead me to the decision to move toward the priesthood. It wasn’t a big risk, it was a slow movement. It was the next right thing to do.
And the wrong thing would be to do what?
What I think it comes down to is the spiritual life. I was living in community with men and women and we would pray, and share our faith, and do ministry, and that, I felt that, truly, God was calling me to be a priest for his people. For me, there is no other way I can live out that desire in my heart. To broadcast my love, God’s love. And the more I got to know God the more I got to know myself. And the more that went the more I knew I was supposed to act… to share in God’s life in this particular way as a priest. But this is me.
Well then can someone have a vocation of being an artist? Is that possible?
Well yeah, I would say that the form that your life takes as a result of keeping on admitting your inabilities and giving it up to let God be first. It could take any form. There is no reason it can’t be an artist. If you’re made to write songs, to make art... if that’s how God comes alive in you, and you’re pinned to that cross, you’re not going to escape from that. Why would you want to, that’s the joy. So to respond confidently to that call to create art would be living a life of integrity. You would be honest about what’s going on inside you.
So it’s about doing what you’re supposed to do. I think that’s discernment and like you said knowing yourself and God. I don’t think it’s possible to just go to one of the other and say “This is what I am made to do.” Even if you’re like Mozart, you know?
This is a huge thing in the music industry, and I’m sure in every capacity, especially in media. That so many times the bass player wants to be the singer. And the singer, you know, should actually be the bass player. And instead of people really honoring their gift-set, they want to be something that they’re not [pause] when the person that should be the bass player is the bass player and the person that should be the vocalist is the vocalist, and when they remain in position, everyone plays their proper role in the body of Christ. They can take of. and it’s easy… well hard work, but easy still. Not everyone is called to be the star, the frontman. It takes courage to either step down or to step up from behind the curtain and say “Hey, I’m really a singer.” We can accept this, we can start relying on God and each other. And we can work together. To really do well... to be one.
But what if my intentions are just so good.. I “really want to just sing for God” or “God is calling me to sing” how does that factor into this conversation?
It sucks to die in prayer. I think we project instead of ask sometimes, and we have to really be ready to accept what comes to us, maybe even to play bass.. And then get to work. God may not be calling you. You have to listen to the community around you, pray in humility, receive this love of God and then act. God is calling you to himself, to let go of what you want and be available. And if it happens to take the form of that singer, and the doors open… you better work your ass off and respond. You've got to be sober and alert and respond. And it’s going to be really, really hard. To be responsible with those gifts that you’ve been given. And if this receiving and responding come together then you end up just being you… as God made you, authentic. Really authentic. That’s the plan.
Okay, what does that actually look like?
So look, if I really believe in God, and I really believe in the work I’m doing, I am going to do everything I can (this includes staying in prayer) to make it great, no matter how many hours it takes to prepare or how much trust is asked of me during the process. It’s holy to work hard. But going back even further, I think we have to talk about what really constitutes greatness. I would much rather listen to a low quality live recording of a good BB King concert than a perfectly quantized, perfectly tuned, slick style pop production. [pause] Those can have the real too, but I think what we are talking about here is authenticity. We need to allow for what is real, what is true, and what is good to shine forth. And God is the fullness of all of these things.
This means we have to go back even further than just defining greatness, we have to go back to the source of greatness. We must remain plugged into that source at all costs even if it seemingly leads to what looks and feels like failure. Yes, this means that the production of good art takes courage. It means pausing and giving space when we find ourselves ahead of God. It means stepping up and out of our bubble in order to engage reality and respond to the opportunities that are presenting themselves, no matter how insignificant they may seem. All we can do is the next right thing. This should take the pressure off. But it can only be done if we are living here and now, experiencing immediately the love of God all the time. This is the only way we can know so deeply our place in Christ that we can loosen up and be flexible to move in any direction the Lord may open up. This is real freedom, and acting freely without fear is the only way we can make great stuff. That's it.
Yeah. I was really challenged after this, I have to be honest. Here are two questions that I pulled out and really chewed on and tried to take to prayer in the days after we talked, and I think these can be powerful guides as we try to understand our role in the world, and especially through art/media activities:
It sucks to die in prayer. I think we project instead of ask sometimes, and we have to really be ready to accept what comes to us, maybe even to play bass.. And then get to work. God may not be calling you. You have to listen to the community around you, pray in humility, receive this love of God and then act. God is calling you to himself, to let go of what you want and be available. And if it happens to take the form of that singer, and the doors open… you better work your ass off and respond. You've got to be sober and alert and respond. And it’s going to be really, really hard. To be responsible with those gifts that you’ve been given. And if this receiving and responding come together then you end up just being you… as God made you, authentic. Really authentic. That’s the plan.
Okay, what does that actually look like?
So look, if I really believe in God, and I really believe in the work I’m doing, I am going to do everything I can (this includes staying in prayer) to make it great, no matter how many hours it takes to prepare or how much trust is asked of me during the process. It’s holy to work hard. But going back even further, I think we have to talk about what really constitutes greatness. I would much rather listen to a low quality live recording of a good BB King concert than a perfectly quantized, perfectly tuned, slick style pop production. [pause] Those can have the real too, but I think what we are talking about here is authenticity. We need to allow for what is real, what is true, and what is good to shine forth. And God is the fullness of all of these things.
This means we have to go back even further than just defining greatness, we have to go back to the source of greatness. We must remain plugged into that source at all costs even if it seemingly leads to what looks and feels like failure. Yes, this means that the production of good art takes courage. It means pausing and giving space when we find ourselves ahead of God. It means stepping up and out of our bubble in order to engage reality and respond to the opportunities that are presenting themselves, no matter how insignificant they may seem. All we can do is the next right thing. This should take the pressure off. But it can only be done if we are living here and now, experiencing immediately the love of God all the time. This is the only way we can know so deeply our place in Christ that we can loosen up and be flexible to move in any direction the Lord may open up. This is real freedom, and acting freely without fear is the only way we can make great stuff. That's it.
Yeah. I was really challenged after this, I have to be honest. Here are two questions that I pulled out and really chewed on and tried to take to prayer in the days after we talked, and I think these can be powerful guides as we try to understand our role in the world, and especially through art/media activities:
- Can I say that I’m authentic? On what grounds? Does my art reflect it or is it only what sells?
- Do I surround myself with people that can tell me I’m not supposed to be the lead singer or that I should step up and do it? Or do I just surround myself with people that will affirm me and compliment what I do? Am I really, truly challenged?
- Do I dishonor my prayer to get better at my work? Do I dishonor my work and only rely on prayer?
